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Why did several tiny ants not die after being cooked with peanuts 2 mins in a 800 W microwave oven?

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  • Asked by essem
  • on 2010-02-11 03:38:18
  • Member status
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Categories: Animals.

Tags: ants, Microwaveoven.

 

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translatrix says:

This question is widely discussed on the internet, as you can find out if you google "ants survive microwave". They answer that the ants are smaller than the wavelength of the microwaves and that there are standing waves so that ants can stay between them. However, I don't know how exact the answer is.

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posted on 2010-02-12 08:15:14 | Report abuse

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Jon-Richfield says:

That is true.  You probagbly could find good answers in LW too. As for the correctness of the answers, being smaller than one qurter wavelength is the most important thing. Fitting in between waves is a popular answer, but it is nonsense, as  a little thinking could tell anyone. A major hazard for an ant in a MW oven is getting cooked by heat from food items in the oven. 

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posted on 2010-02-12 20:03:43 | Report abuse

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Pedant says:

Positioning in relation to standing waves is not nonsense at all. A little thinking will tell you that at the points of minimum e-field virtually no current will be induced in an ant's body and, therefore, no power will be dissipated. This is the reason for including a stirrer antenna or turntable in a MW to avoid cold spots in the food. Of course, with a stirrer or moving food, the standing waves would not be stationary and the ants may find it hard to keep running around chasing the nodes! Nevertheless, the ants are small compared to a half wavelength which is the minimum length of a resonant conductor. Please remember that a resonant quarter wave monopole has a virtual other half reflected in a ground plane.

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posted on 2010-02-17 10:59:56 | Report abuse


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PeteFowler365 says:

The microwaves used for cooking have a frequency of 2450 MHz, which gives them a wavelength of about 12 cm.  Anything shorter than this absorbs their power inefficiently, and the shorter it is, the less efficient the absorption.

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posted on 2010-02-14 04:05:19 | Report abuse

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Jon-Richfield says:

Please remember that the least size for an effective aerial in not in fact the wavelength, but a quarter wave.  For your typical MW oven, that means roughly 3 cm, not 12! you can confirm that by putting a glass of water in a MW oven (to prevent damage) together with a dry sheet of polythene or similarly MW-proof plastic, on which you put a number of threads of steel wool or VERY thinly sliced thin aluminium foil of various lengths. Make sure that they do nt touch each other, not at first anyway! Switch the oven on for just a few seconds and see which ones pop, and in what ways.

 

Cheers,

 

Jon

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posted on 2010-02-16 13:03:49 | Report abuse


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Pedant says:

Research has shown that ants are equipped to sense small temperature gradients and will generally seek an optimum temperature of 24 to 27 Celsius. This means that they should be quite capable of finding an optimum position between stationary or slowly moving standing waves provided that their body temperature does not increase too rapidly when the MW is switched on.

What rate of temperature increase could be expected? The dominant energy absorption mechanism in a microwave oven is in the angular acceleration given to the polar water molecules by the electric field which increases their kinetic energy. Consequently, for small objects alongside larger ones, the power absorbed is approximately proportional to the volume of the item in question. Thermal capacity is also proportional to volume so the rate of temperature increase should be largely independent of the size of the object.

If the full 800 watts were absorbed by, say, a 191.4 ml glass of water, its temperature would rise at a rate of 1 Celsius per second. A similar rate would apply to an ant or a bacterium or the ant's temperature sensing organs and is slow enough for an ant to take evasive action by seeking out nodes in the standing wave pattern. If one considers the ant's thermal resistance to its surroundings, it may not even need to take evasive action!

Thermal resistance is inversely related to surface area and determines thermal time constant when multiplied by thermal capacity which is proportional to volume. So it turns out that the thermal time constant of an object is roughly proportional to its linear dimension. In view of its size and shape, an ant's thermal time constant should be no more than a few seconds at most.

Simple maths tells us that the temperature rise will quickly stabilise near a value equal to the product of the thermal time constant and the initial rate of temperature rise. This means that an initial rate of 1 Celsius per second would result in the ant's temperature stabilising at no more than a few degrees above ambient.

Perhaps the ants would initially be attracted to the "hot" spots in a cold oven, but even in a warm oven they are likely to survive by seeking refuge at the standing wave nodes.

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posted on 2010-02-23 10:10:54 | Report abuse

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Jon-Richfield says:

>Research has shown that ants are equipped to sense small temperature gradients and will generally seek an optimum temperature of 24 to 27 Celsius. This means that they should be quite capable of finding an optimum position between stationary or slowly moving standing waves provided that their body temperature does not increase too rapidly when the MW is switched on.<

 

Non sequitur! Not to confuse the issue with questions of which species of ants prefer 24-27C (In regions familiar to me, for most of the year some ants would have to wait for the wee hours of the morning to get such temperatures. In practice some Ponerine ants go foraging for heat-killed insects in broad daylight in the sun at temperatures of over 40C. But never mind that!) For a start, would the relevant stimuli be sensed as differences in temperature or  electromagnetic gradients? Would they not be too fuzzy to orient our ants with the smartness of our own reflexes when we touch a hot plate?  Anyway, who said anything about “slowly moving”? Why does typical ant motion in the MWO bear no relation to any plausible nodes? I suspect that they had been neglecting to take notes in their physics classes.

 

>What rate of temperature increase could be expected? The dominant energy absorption mechanism in a microwave oven is the oscillatory rotational action of the electric field on the polar water molecules. Consequently, for small objects alongside larger ones, the power absorbed is approximately proportional to the volume of the item in question. Thermal capacity is also proportional to volume so the rate of temperature increase should be largely independent of the size of the object.

 

If the full 800 watts were absorbed by, say, a 191.4 ml glass of water, its temperature would rise at a rate of 1 Celsius per second. A similar rate would apply to an ant or a bacterium or the ant's temperature sensing organs and is slow enough for an ant to take evasive action by seeking out nodes in the standing wave pattern. If one considers the ant's thermal resistance to its surroundings, it may not even need to take evasive action!<

 

 

Not so, but far otherwise…

 

Take an ordinary plastic drinking straw (well, several actually! But not dozens.) Preferably go for the teeny, cheap, clear, narrow ones, the narrower the better, not the great gobjous, vividly coloured, conduits for double-thick malteds. Seal them at one end.  Put water in each; 1 cm in the first, 4 cm in the next, and so on up to say 12 or 18 cm.  If you lay them neatly sloping upwards across  the edge of the turntable it should be unnecessary to seal the other end, but suit yourself.  This should total several cc of water, not several dozen. Put a glass containing 191.40 ml of water at 4C in the centre of the turntable (or near the edge if you like; I am not Bigoted; I am Jon.)  

 

Turn on the power and see how long you have to wait for the 1 cm column to warm up, and compare the rate with that of the water in the glass.  I predict that no matter how patiently you seek a node on that turntable, the water in the glass would boil first.  Compare its behaviour with that of the longer straws. I predict that they spurt steam before  the glass reaches the temperature of a cup of tea comfortable to drink.

 

Any thoughts?

 

 

 

 

>Thermal resistance is inversely related to surface area and determines thermal time constant when multiplied by thermal capacity which is proportional to volume. So it turns out that the thermal time constant of an object is roughly proportional to its linear dimension. In view of its size and shape, an ant's thermal time constant should be no more than a few seconds at most.

 

Simple maths tells us that the temperature rise will quickly stabilise near a value equal to the product of the thermal time constant and the initial rate of temperature rise. This means that an initial rate of 1 Celsius per second would result in the ant's temperature stabilising at no more than a few degrees above ambient.<

 

But Ped! In your maths, don’t you think it would be amusing to include the question of how the heat is being fed into the target? And how fast? Where do you get the 1C/sec??? How, on your  assumption do you explain  small objects popping instead of stabilising their temperatures? Hmm?

>Perhaps the ants would initially be attracted to the "hot" spots in a cold oven, but even in a warm oven they are likely to survive by seeking refuge at the standing wave nodes.<

 

How likely? How many ants have you managed to train to stand still in nodes? And how horrible were the fates of those that went walkabout, fancy free?

 

Ant marching song: “Ooooooh YE’LL tak the fry node and I’ll tak the froze  node…” sung to the sibilance of spiracles for want of bagpipes, and tattoo of  clashing mandibles in lieu of drums. Don’t ask me what singing ants might use for bugles…

 

Cheerio!

Jon

 

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posted on 2010-02-24 10:22:19 | Report abuse

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Pedant says:

Jon-Richfield said in part "Non sequitur!....Not so, but far otherwise"

The research I refer to involved three ant species (namely Lasius latipes, Stenamma fulvum and Camponotus pennsylvanicus) and the temperature range quoted is only a generalisation. The temperature sensing organs mentioned are coeloconic sensilla located on the antennae and, in view of their microscopic size and evolved function, I see no reason for any sensitivity to electromagnetic fields other than the heating effect of same.

The sensillae's small size would also suggest a rapid response time and a gradient in temperature (or more specifically heating effect) would be quickly detected by trial and error. There would be no need for ant training as I'm sure they could rely on millions of years of evolution to make them do the right thing.

Regarding your drinking straws, have you actually performed the described experiment? I predict that disappointment looms. You may find a few bubbles of dissolved air appearing due to warming but not a steam spurter in sight! Please remember that even ionised water is a poor conductor of electricity and can not in any way be compared to a metal rod of similar dimensions in an electromagnetic field.

What is the significance of 191.4 ml of water? To help you answer this question I'll remind you that a Watt is a Joule per second, 4.18 Joules is a calorie, a calorie heats 1 ml of water by 1 Celsius and 800 divided by 4.18 is 191.4.

There are approximately 6.4x10^24 molecules in 191.4 ml of water so, on average, each molecule absorbs 125 yoctowatts from the microwave field. Why should a water molecule in an ant absorb any more or less power than one in a glass of water? Of course, it will get rid of excess energy more easily in the ant as it is closer to the surface so the ant ultimately stays cooler than the glass. A clue to the relationship between initial rate of temperature rise, thermal time constant and final temperature is that d/dx.e^x = e^x.

On the subject of "Popping", unless you are talking about Camponotus saundersi, the "exploding ant", which suicidally ruptures large poison filled glands when provoked, I would hazard a guess that your "exploding" ants are as much pure prediction as your experimental "results". Of course, if you put a thermal jacket around water to stop the heat getting out, it may well "pop" just as inhomogeneities sometimes do in food.

Bye

Chris

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posted on 2010-02-25 00:42:29 | Report abuse


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fkopac says:

The ants are still alive because they are tiny.

A microwave oven works by emitting radio waves at the frequency of 2.4 GHz, which get absorbed in foods containing water. This heats up the water, cooking the food.

To absorb the radio waves efficiently, the heated object must be larger than about 1/4 the wavelength of the radio waves and it must be in the proper range of specific resistance (eg. metal or plastic won't work). For 2.4 GHz the wavelength is 7.5 cm. The tiny ants do have the right specific resistance (like most living things, they are partly made of water), but probably aren't longer than few millimeters, making them too small to efficiently absorb the radio waves.

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posted on 2010-02-28 10:42:05 | Report abuse

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Pedant says:

The heating effect in a microwave oven is primarily a bulk effect of the elctric field on polar molecules (dielectric heating) and, contrary to popular belief, it has little to do with the size of the object compared to a wavelength or any fraction thereof.

Basically, each water molecule receives the same input power wherever located. Having said this, there are some variations due to the standing wave pattern and penetration depth in larger food items but, by and large the heating effect is uniform.

The reason that small items do not achieve as high a temperature as large ones is primarily due to the larger heat loss to the surrounding air caused by the larger suface area to volume ratio.

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posted on 2010-02-28 17:51:42 | Report abuse


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jonpedersen says:

I have to admit that I have just killed two small ants. The first did not survive 10 seconds at 900W in the microwave. A second ant survived 10 seconds, but did not live to see the end of the next 20. This, of course, calls for more research, but I could not find more ants right now. (The ants were very tiny) 

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posted on 2010-04-18 14:41:32 | Report abuse


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