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Why do piano and guitar strings create overtones that are sharp to the fundamental?

Though the middle A may be at 440 Hz, a grand piano will be increasingly flat in the lower octaves and increasingly sharp in the higher octaves.

All the strings have overtones sharp to their fundamentals. A piano tuner takes this into account when tuning.

A piano tuner told me this is referred to as temper.

Though well tempered scales are another matter.

Is the word temper correctly used here?

Why would the strings have overtones sharp to their fundamentals?

I have actually seen this effect displayed on a strobe tuner as outer rings of overtones rotating clockwise to the stationary fundamental.

Photo -  Bruce T

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Last edited on: 2010-09-22 15:25:13

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Ssor says:

As I understand the physics of strings the fundamental and the harmonics are in tune as long as the diameter of string is small compared to the length. As the diameter increases the harmonics become sharp relative to the fundamental due to the string becoming more like a rod which makes it less elastic to smaller waves which have higher frequencies. This raises the pitch of the harmonics. This is why a piano tuner uses a stretch tuning on piano. The low strings harmonics are sharp because they have a larger diameter. Since you hear the harmonics more than the fundamental in the lowest notes of the piano the tuner sharpens the higher strings to be more in tune with them.

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posted on 2010-09-22 19:30:39 | Report abuse


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StewartH status says:

The ideal piano would have very thin strings with equal tensions but different lengths. To achieve this ideal the length of the lower frequency strings would have to be so long as to make the whole instrument huge. To overcome this the designer of the piano uses thicker strings for the lower notes. This is because heavier strings vibrate more slowly than thin strings.

With a thin string, the overtones or harmonics will be at multiples of the fundamental frequency. With thicker strings, the force required to bend the string as it vibrates at high overtones increases. When this required force is much less than the tension in the string there is little effect. When the force starts to aproach the tension in the string, the wave velocity of the string increases and the frequency increases. Hence the overtones will be sharp and the undertones will be slightly flat.

To an extent this can be overcome by using wound strings. Because these strings are thicker their fundamental frequency at a given tension and length will be lower. Because the bulk of the mechanical resistance to bending is in the thin core of the string, the overtones will not be as sharp.

A piano tuner tries to get the overtones to a frequency as clos as possible to the correct value. This results in slight flattening of the fundmental. Because of this tuning a piano is a compromise.

The longer the strings of a piano can be, especially the lower notes, the smaller this effect and the better the piano will sound. This is why a large grand piano is better than a baby grand and much better than an upright.

 

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posted on 2010-09-22 19:42:59 | Report abuse

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tbrucenyc says:

Thank you. I really appreciate the explanations you and Ssor have given me. This is something I knew but didn't understand. I had an unforgettable experience tuning the bass and guitars of a band to agree with a just tuned grand piano used on the same tracking session in the studio.

Several takes had been tried and played back. They seemed ready to cut the master take. Everyone was out of tune to the grand. I asked the producer to, "make them let me tune them". He took a deep breath and announced, "the engineer will now tune the entire band".

Sceptical, reluctant, a bit offended, these well known musicians allowed me to work with them and the strobe tuner to tune their instruments. I stretched the band to the same stretch as that of the piano tuning.

I made the bass slightly flat, even when struck. I made the low strings on the guitars, correct when struck, dying away flat. I set the E strings of the guitars sharp, and the Synth as sharp as the piano was in that octave.

They cut the basic track and came in to the control room for a playback. Still tense, feathers still a bit ruffled...  the playback began... smiles appeared all around the room. It was a keeper! I was vindicated, and that became our routine for the rest of the project.

They were Carlos Alomar,  Earl Slick, - guitars, John Siegler - bass, Michael Kamen - piano and Jimmy Destri, - synthesizer.

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posted on 2010-09-23 17:07:30 | Report abuse


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Paul_Pedant says:

Excellent though the above answers are, it's probably not just due to the strings themselves.

The frame of a piano, or body of an acoustic guitar, are constructed as lightly as possible provided they are strong enough to support the string tension. Partly this is to minimise weight and materials, but mostly to maximise the transfer of energy to the body of the instrument, which acts as a sounding board. If a piano were made of girders, the notes would persist too long, causing discords with following notes, and the sound volume would be minimal. (Consider an electric solid-bodied guitar without an amplifier.)

When I tune my Spanish guitar starting with the lower strings, winding up the top strings bends the body enough to relax the lower strings and make them flat. I have to work round the whole set at least three times to overcome this.

As a string is plucked or hammered, the tension in it increases slightly because it is extended sideways and thus is stretched tighter. (Consider how a guitarist 'bends' a string to get a note up by a whole semitone.) For a high note, this would make the note slightly higher. For a low note with a wound outer skin, it would be more likely to bend the frame or body temporarily, and thus flatten the latter part of the note. Sounding a number of adjacent notes would presumably have a cumulative effect on the frame and flatten the entire chord.

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posted on 2010-09-23 10:32:46 | Report abuse

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tbrucenyc says:

What you are addressing is the fundamentals not the overtones.

Check out these suggestions for using electronic tuners on guitars.

http://bit.ly/bkjybO

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posted on 2010-09-23 16:12:25 | Report abuse


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