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When Pi is calculated to a large number of places, what is actually being computed? Is it a measurement of a real relationship in the real world, or something more abstract and mathematical?

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Jon-Richfield says:

 

Never mind pi for a bit. Suppose someone asks you to calculate say, the area or perimeter of a square formed by putting together four tiles, square in shape, each measuring one unit on a side. Simple enough for you?

If you answered: "Yes," then you are one ahead of me, roughly speaking anyway. It certainly is not simple enough for me.

Did you by any chance get the answer: four? Are you sure? Four point what? It is not enough to say four point nothing, if I ask you what the millionth digit behind the decimal point would be, assuming anyone needed to know that, you either would have to accept that that digit is necessarily a zero, or alternatively that the answer is not in fact four. And you would have to prove that your measurement really did determine that digit to be zero.

The same applies to any calculation whatsoever to which the answer is a single, definite, numeric value, whether an integer or not.

If the problem is abstract and the answer is correspondingly abstract, then that does not matter. We can speak of precise answers in practical fact (such as indeed four, or perhaps 3.3 recurring) where we know, or can trivially determine every single digit of the infinite decimal expansion, or answers in principle such as root 2 or pi, where the universe is not large enough for us to calculate an arbitrarily remote digit.

Let's get back to the area of our four tiles. We are already in a state of sin in that we accepted that each tile was square and measured one unit on a side. Even if hypothetically that was somehow meaningful at the start, it instantly stopped being meaningful thereafter. The tile is made of atoms. Atoms move. Atoms do not permit the measurement of macroscopic objects to a precision finer than a small fraction of the dimensions of an atom. Correspondingly no single number can describe any such parameter of a real-world macroscopic object.

Why then do we use numbers (as a general rule pretty satisfactorily) in describing everyday parameters of everyday objects?

This is a point open to a great deal of quibbling, but roughly speaking (much as we use such numbers roughly) you could say that it is because for most purposes the real-world objects differ from ideal objects only in parameters that we can afford to ignore and cannot in practice afford not to ignore.

Conversely, if we do ignore the negligible parameters, we generally can get thoroughly satisfactory correspondence to simple mathematical operations, such as the calculations of counts, areas, perimeters, masses, and so on. This I assume is more or less what you meant when you spoke of "a real relationship in the real world".

Such a relationship is only arguably real, and in fact is of limited precision, but generally it is close enough for jazz.

If on the other hand you are referring to a notionally infinitely precise calculation such as the hundredth digit of pi as applied to the measurement of a real-life approximation to a circle, then your calculation no longer has a meaningful relation to any physical measurement. 

As the result of a calculation it is in fact no more than the implication, the inferred result of the implications, of certain assumptions. (If you prefer you might say that ultimately your results follow from your axioms.)

There is nothing wrong with that, but it does demand a healthy helping of common sense in applying such ideas in practice. 

If that fails to clarify matters for you, please let us know, and we can have another go.

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posted on 2010-10-10 16:35:08 | Report abuse


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Paul_Pedant says:

I'm not clear whether the title of this question is a hexadecimal digit (limiting TLW to 16 concurrent questions), or a lower-case letter (limiting us to 26 concurrent questions in my local alphabet). However, this convention would make it easier to search for active questions.

Jon's answer was seriously thought-provoking and i would not attempt to improve on it (possibly procession -> precision). I used to work with a guy who claimed "Two is very close to three, especially for large values of two.", which would normally silence a mathematical pedant abruptly.

You will doubtless have heard of John Horton Conway in association with the Game of Life. However, he also came up with a rigorous alternative theory of numbers, first presented as a work of fiction, "Surreal Numbers: How Two Ex-Students Turned on to Pure Mathematics and Found Total Happiness".

One of the visualisations of Surreal Numbers is that, instead of adding numbers one after the other as in counting, the set grows in a kind of tree by recursively interpolating higher precisions as required between existing members of the ordered set, starting with the empty set.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surreal_number

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Horton_Conway

 

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posted on 2010-10-11 11:33:13 | Report abuse

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Jon-Richfield says:

 

Thanks Paul: (possibly procession -> precision). I thought I had cleared out all the "processions" <grrr...>

>I used to work with a guy who claimed "Two is very close to three, especially for large values of two."<

I love that one. How about: "What are you complaining about now? Of course 2+2 = 5; at least for either suitably large values of two or small values of five!" 

Do you know the one about the different kinds of mathematicians? In case not, try this one (sorry, I have lost the attribution):

       1.)  According to Fields Medalist Enrico Bombieri, there are three kinds of mathematicians:  those who can count, and those who can't.

       2.)  I happen to believe that people can be divided into precisely two categories--those who believe that people can be divided into precisely two categories, and those who don't.

       3.)  If you agree with me, let me ask you this -

                 which category do we put Bombieri in?

Well, whichever category we put Bombieri in--you're in the same one!

Beautiful, say I!

PS: I went Web-trawling and found:

http://betsydevine.com/blog/2004/10/page/2/

One Betsy Devine said she created it, and no doubt she did. Seems to be an impressive woman!

> "Surreal Numbers: How Two Ex-Students Turned on to Pure Mathematics and Found Total Happiness". <

That one was written by Donald Knuth, having met Conway, and discussed the matter with him. Those two are both heroes of mine.

 

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posted on 2010-10-11 17:53:13 | Report abuse


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StewartH status says:

When pi is calculated we do not measure a circle and go from there. There are a number of expressions that can be used to calculate pi, one of them is the Leibniz Formula. You can find the formula and an explanation/proof here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibniz_formula_for_pi

The idea is that with each itteration the result gets closser to pi.

 

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posted on 2010-10-11 21:42:04 | Report abuse


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