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After a mug of water has been boiled in a microwave, it goes 'off the boil' on removal but then, when a tea bag is added, it all boils up again - why?

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  • Asked by K_Saul
  • on 2010-10-19 15:16:55
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Jon-Richfield says:

That tends to happen dramatically only if the water has been superheated. If it is only at boiling point the bag still will bubble fairly vigorously, but that is caused by all the dry, hollow spots in the tealeaves and the fibres of the bag. The air in such spots expands, partly from heating and partly from taking up water vapour from the hot liquid. 

I have seen a lot of denials that the explosive boiling of superheated liquids in the microwave oven is possible, but I assure you from personal experience that it happens often enough to be realy dangerous. Smug denials are based on the fact that the conditions are not easy to reproduce to order and that quite trivial effects can prevent the superheating. For instance it commonly happens that an old glass vessel has microscopic surface cracks that nucleate boiling, which abolishes the effect pretty nearly absolutely. So can suitable particles of mineral dust, or even dense organic particles, such as some kinds of nutshells. Any sort of wooden spoon or stirrer that has one end in near the bottom of the fluid in the vessel prevents any "bumping" by inducing smooth boiling. Many metal objects have similar effects.

If however, you do have a microscopically smooth ceramic or glass or some kinds of plastic vessel, possibly with a trace of oil covering its inner surface, then the least hint of nucleation can make the liquid overheat and explode. A teabag is very full of nucleation sites, so it can cause anything from vigorous bubbling to explosion.

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posted on 2010-10-19 16:18:04 | Report abuse


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Georg says:

After a mug of water has been boiled in a microwave,

When the water boiled in the microwave (bubbling)

superheating is no longer possible.

A good (and reproducible) example of superheating

and explosive boiling is to place an egg in a microwave.

Dont try it, there are "tubes" enough on Youtube.

Georg

 

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posted on 2010-10-19 20:01:21 | Report abuse


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Jon-Richfield says:

It is hazardous to make assertions about what is or is not physically possible without considering carefully all the relevant factors as well as the proper context of the question. Firstly, are we speaking about severe bubbling on adding the teabag, or an all out boiling explosion? If the former, then to assert that no superheating is possible is a rather large assumption; it requires that before all the process of boiling had completed, all the water containing any excess heat over and above what one simplistically might expect to be sufficient to cause boiling will have been convicted to any surviving nucleation centres in the liquid. This I am sure anyone in the forum will realise is a large assumption. There are all sorts of tests that one can try, but I am sure that the simplest would be to drop various sources of nucleation centres and see what happens at various moments after a large glass beaker of clean water has been given time to boil vigorously in a microwave oven, and then to stop boiling. Sprinkling half a teaspoon of dry salt or sugar as the final bubbles disappear might indicate where some un-nucleated vapour had been lurking.

Or of course, one could drop in a teabag, but I think you will agree that it would offer fewer surprises.

Conversely of course, there is the question of whether the water we had been boiling were sufficiently experienced or not; naive water has bad habits. So let us suppose that we start with a nice, large, clean beaker of water (distilled if you so prefer) in our microwave oven, and boil it. If it boils explosively, something that I am sure we all have experienced, top it up and continue until we have a nice, full beaker of boiling water.

All right so far?

Turn off the power.

Wait for a minute or so.

Turn on the power.

Now this experiment, if it is to be properly and cogently performed, will require some statistical expertise, but if cogency is not required, just repeating it a few times should do nicely. Which water would you expect to be likelier to boil explosively? The naive or the experienced?

As for the reproducible eggs, they have very little to do with it. They explode, not so much because of superheating, as because they are in their shells. If you do not believe this (and have the patience to clean up the resulting messes and have some eggs to spare) then put in eggs one at a time, standing up in non-metallic egg cups or some similar suitable support. Some eggs should have whole, sound shells. Others, remove the large end of the shell and rupture the membrane so that the liquid is open to the air. (It is not sufficient simply to puncture the shell).

Observe how each egg boils. You may find signs that some of the opened eggs superheat, though I should bet against it, but the reason that the entire eggs explode is partly that the yolks are fatty and can get hotter than the rest of the liquid, and partly that the shells and membranes permit enough pressure to build up for the eggs' contents to rise several degrees above ambient boiling point. When the shell finally yields, the result is naturally reproducibly messy. You could reproduce this effect with water in any kind of sealed container, preferably microwave-transparent, but I do not recommend it, although, come to think of it, it should be a lot less messy than the exploding eggs.

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posted on 2010-10-20 17:44:27 | Report abuse

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Georg says:

Hello Jon,

I did not understand the first paragraph of Your post in general.

What I meant was simply, that if the water boiled,  "superheat" 

is no longer there. Of course one can try to restart the heating

to superheat a second time, but that is not the theme here.

Discussion was: mug with heated water out of the microwave,

then teabag in.

Fat in yolk being heated to higher temperatures than the surrounding

water:

Simply impossible. Put some fat/oil in a microwave and "heat".

Then report here.  (And read something on working priciples of

microwave ovens)

Overheating of eggs in general:

Overheating is dependent on exclusion of "steam gemination".

This is achieved by cleanliness and absence of sharp edges of

crystals or scratches in the surfaces.

A very helpful thing is to have some viscosity in the liquid.

(Try a gelatin solution or some tapestry glue in the water)

The viscosity will "brake" movements creating steam gerrmination

microbubbles.

All this factors are in a egg : extreme cleanliness, 

no "edges" and viscosity.

(And, a eggshell will sustain several bars from outside if

only this pressure is homogenous, but pressuse from inside

is something different.)

Regards

Georg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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posted on 2010-10-21 19:30:12 | Report abuse

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Jon-Richfield says:

Hi Georg, You said: “… if the water boiled, ‘superheat’ is no longer there.”

Yes, that is what I understood you to mean. The point I was making was that I disagreed. Certainly the amount of superheated water in a boiling vessel is far smaller than in a vessel of the same size that has not yet started boiling but has become superheated and is just about to "bump" or even boil explosively. However, unless the water is rich in nucleation centres, it is quite possible for there to be considerable amounts of latent steam in the liquid, if you will excuse such an informal way of putting it. From your laboratory experience you will long have been well aware that many liquids are so prone to bumping, that to boil them safely one needs to supply some continuous source of nucleation, such as an air leak, depending on the nature of the fluid. Plain water is not commonly so ill-behaved, though occasionally it does bump, depending on the vessel and other factors.

More to the point, it certainly is very common for water that has just come off the boil to contain considerable amounts of superheated material or "latent steam" for a few seconds. Practically any time that you try this with boiling water in a very clean, smooth vessel, letting it come off the boil and immediately dropping in some source of nucleation such as sugar or a teabag, there will be a sudden rush of bubbles. In the case of the teabags the large amount of hair conserved in the dried leaf tissue and similar hollows, complicates the observation, but you can vary the conditions of the experiment to satisfy yourself that there is more to it than just a bubbles. This makes simple sense of course, because when we boil water we do not heat it evenly, molecule by molecule.

My point about taking it off the boil and then recommencing boiling was not strictly necessary; I simply meant that one would be sure there would be as little dissolved air remaining in the water as possible.

Now, Georg, you really have nonplussed me with: “...Simply impossible. Put some fat/oil in a microwave and ‘heat’. Then report here. (And read something on working priciples of microwave ovens)”

This is a joke? Georg, surely you must be aware of the range of principles of microwave heating? Certainly polarity of molecules certainly is one factor, and in everyday cooking is far and away the most important factor. However it is far from the only one. What about electrical conductivity for example? What about the mobility of the molecules in question, as affected by for example whether the material is frozen or not, and how hot it is if it is a liquid?  What about the production of polar molecules or even free radicles on excessive heating, such as we get when food chars?

For one example of such a real-life principle, I am sure that you must realise that say, a 200 g block of reasonably pure ice, in which the water molecules can hardly rotate at all, does none the less absorb microwave energy, though only about half as efficiently as a 200 g beaker of water on the same shape. This is why we troublesome positive feedback effects when thawing frozen foods. 

Then again, try putting a block of pure hydrocarbon plastic or even wax in a microwave oven. I advise that you do not follow this suggestion at all, but if you do follow it anyway, then use a microwave oven that you do not much mind damaging. It is necessary for this experiment to use a sizeable, solid block of material, say a couple of kilograms; such waxy stuff does not heat rapidly at first, so a small block is prone to cool faster than the microwaves can heat it significantly.

You will find (as I am sure that you already are confident) that not much happens. However, if you use suitable techniques to maintain the microwave irradiation, and your oven holds out, the block of hydrocarbon finally does begin to heat internally, and at that point it is a very good idea to stop the experiment. If you do not you are likely to get a runaway reaction in which the interior of the block begins to absorb microwaves quite rapidly, no doubt as a result of chain breaking with the formation of free radicles, which I am sure you will agree, tend to be polar. The results can be messy.

I have done nothing of the kind in recent years, because of domestic circumstances that preclude my putting blocks of plastic into our kitchen microwave oven without excessive risks of domestic explosion, but I invite you to try it yourself and let me know what you find. The oil experiment is a lot simpler but I am sure you understand that it is not to be lightly undertaken.

And I advise any other readers without laboratory experience, firstly not to try it, and secondly if they must try it to do so with considerable care not to go near either the oil or the water for at least a minute after switching off the oven.

The procedure I recommend is to take two generous-sized glass mugs, or glass beakers if they are available, say, 200 mL to 500 mL in size. Half fill one with water, and the other with cooking oil. Make sure that the oil is very dry.

The reason for the water is two-fold: for one thing, it acts as a ballast that reduces the risk of damaging the oven; secondly it acts as a crude measure of how much energy the other objects in the oven absorb. First put the water beaker into the oven alone, and carefully note how long it takes to boil. Then throw out the boiling water and replace it with cold water at the same starting temperature.

Now put in both containers and see how long it takes the water to boil this time. If your oven works like my oven you will find that it takes longer; you don't need me to point out that this suggests that something has been absorbing some of the heat. Cautiously feel the temperature of the oil, which is likely to be anywhere between gently warm and quite hot.

If it is hot, take my advice and stop the experiment right there. If it is just warm you might wish to take the experiment a little further, but be careful: the behaviour of pure oil in a microwave oven is non-linear; the hotter it gets, the better it absorbs microwaves. Remember that the oil can heat quite suddenly, partly because its specific heat is quite a bit lower than that of water, and remember also that it can get a great deal hotter than boiling water!

Furthermore once the oil starts to decompose thermally it releases not only free fatty acids, but acrolein and other products that absorb microwaves pretty well. And as I have already pointed out, cooking oil is chemically different from alkanes; for one thing, although it might not seem very polar when you try to dissolve it in water, the position of the oxygen atoms in the molecules does in fact affect their orientation in electromagnetic fields!

Well, you then can repeat the experiment while the oil is still warm; I am sure that you will find that it takes the next glass of water still longer to boil because the oil is by now a pretty fair microwave absorber.  Please proceed cautiously after this point, and remember every time you want to open that oven, to wait a minute or so (not just a few seconds) for any explosive surprises to do their worst or alternatively to subside before you put yourself at risk.

If you try it, do let me know!

Now eggs... About eggs...

Georg, you said in part: "Overheating is dependent on exclusion of ‘steam gemination’... by cleanliness and absence of sharp edges...” Up to a point that is true, but while I do not deny your next remark, I think I would feel a little happier if you could elaborate slightly on it: "A very helpful thing is to have some viscosity in the liquid...” In spite of what you say, unless the fluid you are heating is dramatically free of localised heating, I would expect boiling to start sooner in a viscous fluid than in a mobile fluid unless the viscous solute happens to reduce the presence of nucleation centres. Reduction of convection currents should after all favour localised heating, right?

But be that as it may, although I am well aware that breaking into an egg is more challenging than breaking out of it, remember firstly that we are not really discussing the question of whether the pressure that an egg shell and its associated membranes can sustain from inside is sufficient to produce an explosion that will wreck the oven, but simply enough to create a dramatic mess inside it. In the old days it was a fairly common practice to roast eggs instead of boiling them, and roasting eggs were notorious for exploding in people's faces even though the roasting process could not heat the inside of the egg as evenly as microwave heating does. What counts in this case is largely the fact that when the egg does split it does so all at once, having first permitted a fair amount of pressure to build up, both in the free space inside the egg, and as latent steam inside the liquid part. There is considerable accumulated work in an egg just about to explode, and the brittleness of the shell releases it all at once. What is more, is that only a new-laid egg does not contain an air-cell, and by the time that the air is hot enough to burst the shell, there is scope for quite a splash!

Now, remember that I did invite you to compare the behaviour of an egg heated with a hole of say, at least a cm diameter in the shell, and exposing the white, not with the membranes exposed. You will find that the difference in behaviour is quite dramatic!

My apologies on another point; I had meant to welcome you to the forum, but I have been away for some days, which has complicated my life and my correspondence considerably. I shall have more to say elsewhere.

Cheers,

Jon

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posted on 2010-10-22 11:14:57 | Report abuse


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Georg says:

Hello Jon:

.- Microwave physics:

"Rotation" of molecules in liquid water is not possible.

The molecules are locked into a diamond-like structure

by hydrogen bonds. (Same structure as in ice, but there

is is rigid over the dimensions of the crystals.

Result: Ice is not heated by microwaves to an extent

one could realize in a household oven)

The structure in liquid water is dynamic and allows 

a strong orientation (DK=81 !) whose relaxation has

its maximum at 30 GHz. Microwave ovens with about

10 GHz work on a flange of this maximum where water is

still transparent enough. Higher frequencies would be

absobed on the suface.

All this is specific for liquid water! There is no substance which is

heated by 10 GHz in a similar extent.

Especially fat is not heated by this frequencies.

Try it, please.

http://books.google.com/books?id=bj1EnQPB0CMC&pg=PA184

Superheating:

Superheating is achieved more easy  by microwaves for a reason

not mentioned yet: If You heat from outside, by a flame or

a electric heating plate, You always have a thin boundary layer

with a temperature higher that the bulk in Your pot.

There the bubbles will start first. If You try to have less temperature

in that layer, You need more time, another thing which will  give

fate more time to start bubbles.

All this is less when heating with microwaves, because this is

mostly scalar, the heat beeing evolved nearly homogenous through the

volume.

Viscosity:

If You heat some viscous lqwuid from outside, some other phenomenon

takes place: film evaporation and "burning" of the viscous mass.

(Every cooks knows that an uses a bain marie  to heat gelatin

solution)

Same thing occures when heating eggs in a pan: You have to reduce heat

to avoid "black" eggs where they have contact to the pan.

This is what I assume You mix up with "not easily superheated".

(You can look up this things in textbooks chapters "standard operations"

for chemical/therrmal engeneering.

Georg

 

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posted on 2010-10-24 13:24:04 | Report abuse


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Jon-Richfield says:

 

Hello Georg,

>"Rotation" of molecules in liquid water is not possible. The molecules are locked into a diamond-like structure by hydrogen bonds. <

 

I think you are being just a little bit free with your terminology. "Locked into a diamond like structure"??? That is a very loose "locking" if you will forgive my saying so! When I spoke of rotation I was referring to rotational forces, not necessarily spinning free, as might happen in a low-pressure uni-molecular gas. In an electromagnetic field, polar molecules are subjected to rotational forces that orient them to line up with the field. In a liquid, such as water, if the field is strong enough then any bonds, whether stable or transient, will be broken. So let us not talk about rotation being impossible. In particular hydrogen bonds and van der Waals forces in a fluid of small molecules, such as those of water, are rather transient for us to speak about "diamond-like" structures, don't you think? They are continuously breaking by the billion (or quadrillion for all I know, I have never thought of calculating it accurately) in every millilitre above freezing point, never mind boiling point!

But that is a total red herring anyway; I don't know why you raised it. More to the point, as you are well aware, the electromagnetic field in microwave radiation changes continuously (and rather rapidly). As a result, let us consider a particular molecule in liquid water, however repugnant the idea might seem to a quantum theorist, let's call him Maurice. Let us go further and assume that Maurice is well connected by hydrogen bonds and that our microwave field is too feeble to break those bonds. What happens? Does Maurice sit dead still? You know very well he does not. His hydrogen bonds become strained. As the field passes on, it will go through a phase in which Maurice with his strained bonds is aligned with the field and at that point he experiences zero rotational force from the field. However he does not experience zero rotational force from his strained bonds! He begins to correct his position to relax those bonds. The energy that the field had exerted cannot simply disappear, right? His recovery rotation is expressed as heat, even though it is not a full rotation, nor in the example of our beloved Maurice, even a half rotation.

Meanwhile of course the orientation of our microwave field continues changing, and the poor, dear, Maurice has a rather dizzy time ahead of him, whether he can complete a rotation or not.

I trust we are in agreement about the life history of Maurice?

I trust furthermore that we are in agreement that a sufficiently intense microwave field would make a mockery of his hydrogen bonds.

>(Same structure as in ice, but there is is rigid over the dimensions of the crystals. Result: Ice is not heated by microwaves to an extent one could realize in a household oven)<

Now here Georg, you positively dismay me. "Ice is not heated by microwaves to an extent one could realise in a household oven"???

It is fortunate for us that we never realised this when we bought our first microwave oven. Our ignorance enabled us as some of the first duties of that oven, to defrost some frozen meat. And as Dilbert might put it: "Now at this point a miracle happens..." Miraculously our meat thawed.

Georg, in my wife's absence I have on occasion been able to experiment with the microwave oven to a prudent extent, and I determined that Maurice would behave very much the same in liquid and solid water. In a solid crystal of course the probability of his rotating hard enough to break any bonds would be negligible, but he still can wobble about a little bit. The work he performs in doing that is less than he would achieve in liquid, let alone a gas, but it is work nonetheless, and produces heat. Let us not be unreasonable; I read your remarks, not to imply that they would be no heat generated in ice, simply that they would be negligible heat generated.

However it had occurred to me to wonder just how much, so I tried some experiments. It was rather fun actually. I prepared some microwave-transparent containers of water, which I brought to the boil, and then froze into solid blocks, all of the same mass, and all still in their transparent containers. Then I took two similar containers of water at ambient temperature and brought them to the boil in the oven. I noted the time that this took. I then put in a single container at ambient temperature and brought that to the boil. Not surprisingly, that took roughly half as long.

Now I put in a single container of water, this time with one of the blocks of ice, which I had frozen as deeply as my domestic equipment would permit. Guess what happened Georg?

The water boiled after an interval that suggested that the block of ice had absorbed the microwaves at roughly half the efficiency that an equivalent glass of water would have done. In my experiment each container held roughly 200 mL of water. I did several replications of course (wasn't it clever of me to remember that long word when so long out of the laboratory?) And some of my frozen glasses of water were just starting to melt at a few spots when the liquid water was starting to boil. Watching the behaviour of the melting ice was extremely informative. I strongly recommend that anyone using a microwave oven for thawing anything takes a good long thoughtful look at the behaviour of such a block of ice and carefully considers some of the implications of conduction, convection and positive feedback.

Now Georg, it is common cause that ice does not absorb microwaves, certainly not at the frequencies in domestic ovens, as efficiently as liquid water does. So far no surprises. However I do hope you will accept that absorbing microwaves at roughly half the efficiency is far, far from negligible! Agreed?

>Microwave ovens with about 10 GHz work on a flange of this maximum where water is still transparent enough. Higher frequencies would be absobed on the suface.<

I have no quarrel with that whatsoever, but may I point out that my domestic microwave oven is not one of your laboratory models with GT stripes. On the back of my oven it tells me that I can only expect on average 2450 MHz, less than a quarter of your frequency.

>All this is specific for liquid water! There is no substance which is heated by 10 GHz in a similar extent.

Especially fat is not heated by this frequencies.

Try it, please. <

Sorry Georg, but I cannot. As I said, I am limited to about a quarter of that frequency. For sure sloth I will take your word for it that water is uniquely responsive to that frequency, but forgive me my reservations in the light of your denial (as I understood it at any rate) that a domestic microwave oven could melt ice. Having also observed personally that it can heat fat, forgive me if I do not undertake to store fat in a 10GHz oven in the fond expectation that it will be secure against heating. If you have in fact such an oven and a suitable mass of dry fat at your disposal, and you feel moved to demonstrate your faith in the immunity of the fat to microwaves, then given your professional laboratory competence, it would not become me to advise you against trying some hands-on experimentation.

Please let us know the outcome.

I'll break off here and continue the next topic in another reply. I still have a few replies outstanding from the past, but I know that you will understand the constraints of available time.

All the best

Jon

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posted on 2010-10-25 15:25:57 | Report abuse

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Georg says:

Hello Jon,

this is really annoying! THis is the second time I wrote of

10 GHz in microwave ovens, this is due that in memozized

ca. 10 cm wavelength long ago.  Grrr.

Of course 2,5 GHz is correct.

But all other things I wrote are facts. If You do not have time

to place a sample of some oil in a microwave oven, I cant help.

Georg

 

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posted on 2010-10-25 20:57:02 | Report abuse

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Jon-Richfield says:

Hello again Georg,

>this is really annoying! This is the second time I wrote of 10 GHz in microwave ovens, this is due that in memozized ca. 10 cm wavelength long ago.  Grrr.<

Ah. Well that at least is something I can resonate with, if not with the microwaves. It is exactly the sort of thing I always am doing myself. You think you have a problem?

 

>Of course 2,5 GHz is correct.<

Well... about 2.45 round here on average, but who's counting...  :-)

 

>But all other things I wrote are facts. If You do not have time to place a sample of some oil in a microwave oven, I cant help.<

 

Now there I fall right off the bus again.  It seems that facts get lost in translation between hemispheres. Which of my facts don't work in Europe? Are your ice molecules so much more rigidly constrained than ours for example, so that you cannot melt ice or defrost food in microwaves north of the equator? Or pop popcorn in microwaves?  Do your water molecules not experience rotational  vibrations in microwaves if they are not in the gaseous phase, no matter how intense the field?

And (this gets embarrassing) I had assumed that your failure to heat fat had been because of using some special MW oven that ran at 10 GHz, but it appears that that was incorrect. Georg, we routinely heat fat in our 2.45 GHz model, but cautiously, to avoid positive feedback excursions!

And of course, if you cannot find time to try the ice/water experiment as I described it, I in turn cannot help that!

While we are on such subjects, what are your views on heating igneous rock or glass in a MW oven? I have not tried this myself, but it seems that some people are more enterprising.

Cheers,

 

Jon

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posted on 2010-10-26 12:49:33 | Report abuse


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