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translatrix says:

Someone else must answer the question in detail but it must have to do with the processes going on in the water itself, because non-electric kettles make the noise too.

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posted on 2010-11-15 14:18:33 | Report abuse


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Jon-Richfield says:

Translatrix is quite correct.

The water in the kettle is not all at the same temperature at the same time, not even when it is boiling. In particular when most of the kettle still is cold, but the element is getting hot enough to produce bubbles of steam, a bubble will suddenly explode into existence, creating a sound. However, what with the cold water all around it, it almost immediately condenses again into water, and thereby creates something pretty close to a vacuum. The surrounding water collapses into the space, typically fairly symmetrically. This means that the collapse ends abruptly at the centre of the bubble, creating something of a hammer effect. This makes a louder noise than the original steam explosion, which had ended comparatively gently.

In isolation the noise made by such bubbles is not particularly loud, but in a suitable kettle, particularly a metal one, the collapsing bubbles create the hammer effect directly onto the metal. Hammering on metal makes a loud noise, as you can tell by tapping your fingernails or a teaspoon against your metal kettle, or if it is not metal, tapping against the metal element inside the kettle.If you watch what happens on the element as the water heats up, you can see the bubbles forming and collapsing against the hot parts of the kettle while the noise is at its loudest.

When the boiling begins in real earnest, the surrounding water is pretty well at boiling point, and so it does not cause the steam to condense and collapse the bubble. Instead the bubbles of steam rise to the top and collapse with a gentle plop.

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posted on 2010-11-15 16:50:15 | Report abuse

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Georg says:

Hello Jon,

You describe the process quite exact. The "singing" of the

water happens only when the bulk of the water is still rather cold.

If You watch the process closely (best in a glas vessel)

You can see the bubbles expand and collapse,

similar to cavitation bubbles.

One addendum: to get a certain "tone" (not just

some hiss by random action) some synchronisation of the

proces between neighbouring bubbles has to take place.

How this happens, I don't know.

Georg

 

 

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posted on 2010-11-25 22:52:06 | Report abuse


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Jon-Richfield says:

 

Georg,

you are quite correct of course about the cooler water and the cavitation, but I particularly wish to thank you for your remarks on a kettle striking a particular tone or note. I am embarrassed to say that though I had heard such tones in the past, I had never stopped to think about them. In particular I seem to remember them most from my childhood. Have I just been unlucky, or have the kettles stopped singing? Comments from anyone would be welcome.

Having slept on the thought, I find the range of speculation too wide for proper discussion in my state of ignorance, but a few points strike me as being of immediate interest and I would be grateful if participants would contribute.

As for my own reactions, first of all, I am fairly confident that the resonance of the kettle plays an important part. I seem to remember that a roughly hemispherical copper kettle we had when I was a child quite commonly would sing as it simmered. Most of the kettles we have owned since then have had slenderer shapes, and in recent years some of them have been plastic. Such factors might not have favoured resonance.

Also I suspect that the immersion elements found in kettles in recent decades do not favour the formation of large areas of uniform bubbles, but rather produce bubbles that are rapidly detached by convection currents. This presumably favours efficient transmission of heat and better cooling of the element, but it would do little to promote musicality. One cannot have everything...

Now, not long ago I noticed that various local species of limpets formed surprisingly regular nearly-hexagonal arrays on flat concrete surfaces on breakwaters. Certain species of sea birds nesting on level areas form similar patterns. Those patterns result from a short-range repulsion (territorial behaviour) imposed on opportunistic occupation of available locations. The two opposing influences, repulsion and attraction, create negative feedback that results in a stable, near-optimal distribution, which commonly works out to be roughly hexagonal.

Now, that old copper kettle — its element was beneath a flat copper bottom. I never paid it much attention, but I have seen simmering bubbles of uniform size in close, more or less hexagonal array on similarly flat surfaces. I suspect in fact, given that heat transmission in boilers and similar devices has been intensively studied, that such bubble arrays are standard subjects of investigation, but it is a field about which I know practically nothing, so everything I say here amounts to empty speculation. I remain under regenerative as usual, partly because empty speculation sometimes leads to substantial insight, and partly because it is fun. Heat engineers who have read so far are advised that the worst is yet to be, and that unless their masochism impels them to contribute, they had better stop now and cool off comfortably while their tempers still are under control, which I am not.

At its most naive, my first idea was that on a flat surface bubbles would form more or less uniformly and that the growth of each bubble, also more or less uniformly, would be constrained by the supply of heat from below and the rate of heat loss to the surrounding water. One might imagine that this would lead to a steady flow of heat, but of course in practice we get the cavitation effect of simmering, with bubbles repetitively growing (thereby absorbing heat) and collapsing (and in turn releasing heat). If such synchronous collapse nearly resonates with a resonant frequency of the container, there should be positive feedback of the compression pulses, such that it would be entirely believable that there would be an entrainment effect, causing the bubbles to synchronise at a resonant frequency.

So far, so persuasive, if just a little vague. However, on a finer scale of detail, there is room for deeper enquiry. Imagine that the first bubbles form in isolation at largely random points. As the bubble expands it rapidly cools the surface below and the surrounding water, but almost as rapidly loses heat to the water above (which is what causes the cavitation). The cooling of the surface below, possibly together with the shock wave from the cavitation, might be expected to repel nucleation sites forming too closely adjacent. Here we can see the analogy to the limpets and seabirds: long-range attraction or opportunistic occupation, conditioned by short-range repulsion. By the time that the surface is fully occupied, the bubble size is determined by negative feedback as each bubble "competes" with its neighbours for latent steam, causing neighbouring bubbles to match each other closely in size, rate of growth, and distance apart. It is immediately obvious that if such conditions were to pertain in a suitable vessel, we could expect high degrees of resonance, although possibly octaves apart.

In practice I cannot help suspecting that high-speed footage of the bubble behaviour not only would reveal resonant growth and collapse on flat surfaces, but that at various rates of heat flow (as determined by the temperature of the water, the temperature of the heated surface, its conductivity and so on) we would get various sub-resonances, with adjacent bubbles alternating rather than remaining in direct synchrony. This might reduce the amplitude of the dominant resonance, but double or treble the frequency.

Anyway, as you can see, if there is any merit to this speculation, it might well explain certain classes of a characteristic note of singing simmering. It should be easy to examine in the laboratory.

Any suggestions anyone?

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posted on 2010-11-27 11:19:46 | Report abuse

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Georg says:

In particular I seem to remember them most from my childhood. Have I just been unlucky, or have the kettles stopped singing? Comments from anyone would be welcome.

 

Hello Jon,

one of the important factors ruling this business is the "heat current density" (HCD)

This figure is very much dependent on the kind of heating.

With gas flames or on an oldfashioned stove ("AGA"?) You may have

very high HCD, whereas  modern electrical heating plates  together with

the good planarity of today kettles/pot bottoms the net HCD is less.

Those electrical heated water pots  differ in one point, as

the heater coil tube is welded directly to the bottom of the pot,

thus causing a rather small area where the heat flow comes in.

The heat transfer from a wall into a liquid is a topic well known to

thermal engeneering (Steam boilers), but they always deal

with liquids close to the boiling point. This is rather different

to the problem of the "singing" kettle, there is no collapse of

bubbles. So, I think not much  can be learned from that business.

Georg

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posted on 2010-11-28 13:22:32 | Report abuse

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Jon-Richfield says:

Thanks Georg,

Good points.

I hadn't thought of conditions such as thin metal walls heated in limited areas or in arrays or patterns of positions. It seems like a field of investigation in which there is scope for much fun to be had...

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posted on 2010-11-28 14:19:53 | Report abuse


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