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What causes old/weak animals to leave the herd?

Yes Georg, your remarks are generally fairly on the money.

Elephants will indeed defend their young for may years, and if not panicked will defend each other. 

"But does a elephant which is dying really leave the herd?"

Not generally and you are right about the rest of the herd sticking together. They really seem to mourn their losses. (So? Call me anthropomorphic if you like! I have broad shoulders and a broader mouth!)  :-)

"I think elephants are the only animals not attacked by predators even when old/ill. This means, they will lay down in such a case and stay behind."

Again, this is generally true, but not unconditionally. At least one pride of lions has been documented as routinely attacking adolescent elephants at night, when their superior night vision causes the herd mutual protection to break down.

"And the herd will wait for such an elephant, at least for some days. Whereas the herds of thousands of gnus and gazelles and zebras (often mixed!) wont defend a member, they dont have a real "social" coherence. Defending someone is not their practice."

Yes, generally that is so. One has to beware of detailed predictions; for example, buffalo and hippo sometimes hold surprises for attackers, and so do mothers of various animals, but in general yes.  There are other aspects of interspecific herd interaction, but they do not in general affect anything you said here.

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Georg says:

(So? Call me anthropomorphic if you like! I have broad shoulders and a broader mouth!)

 

Hello Jon,

this is anthropomorhic, but I won't blame You for that.

Basic things like actual fear, parents care, joy, love  are very likely

similar to identical in mammals.

There seem to be very fundamental hormonal systems

to rule this things. For that reasons I think such feelings

are quite the same for mammals.

Men have a conscious system ("brains") where such feelings

are mirrored, likely the feelings can be triggered from

"top" when we remember.

To what extent such feelings based on memeory/ratio

are common for animals, I dont know.

Georg

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posted on 2010-11-30 12:06:02 | Report abuse

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Jon-Richfield says:

Thanks Georg,

In broad terms what you say reflects my view of the matter.

 

I have no way of cogently denying suffering in others, whether humans, other mammals, or other sentient animals or even plants. (Computers... Hmmm... Ask me in another two centuries...)

 

I also have no better way of affirming it than analogy from observation and deduction, but that is a stronger basis for affirmation than unthinking Popperians are inclined to recognise.

 

I cannot afford to turn my life upside down by avoiding treading on every worm that I fail to see, or swallowing every unnoticed cockroach in my lettuce, much cruelly crunching the living, defenceless cells of the lettuce itself, but where conceivable cruelty is reasonably avoidable, humane behaviour is its own reward as a fail-soft option. So i have just been wasting my sympathy on a suffering film character, or petting a fetching doll, both of them constructed to fool me? Big deal!

 

So a kingfisher bit me the other day? It was worth it!

 

Pascal's wager redivivus, only with more visible reward.

 

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posted on 2010-11-30 14:56:30 | Report abuse


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