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2+2 does not always equal 4...

Jon: you say, ‘It is the non-mathematician who misapplies axioms in real life, and feels aggrieved because maths makes no sense.’ Jon, when I use 5 small eggs instead of 4 large ones to make a pavlova I am not applying an axiom, and I don’t feel aggrieved because I’ve used commonsense to avoid a problem.

You also say, ‘Always, always and always, always, as long as you are using the “usual” arithmetical mathematical axioms.’ Okay, but Nicholas would know that. He was asking if other interpretations of 2 + 2 = 4 are valid. You say no and I say yes. It’s the ‘always’ bit I take umbrage with. A mathematician’s view of 2 + 2 is not the only valid one. They don't have the copyright. If we non-mathematicians want to say one drop of water plus one drop of water results in one drop of water, we can.

 If I want to send a probe to Saturn I’ll use mathematics (if I could), but if I want to cook an apple pie I’ll cook an equation to do it. That said, I’m sure you would be happy to use 4 large apples instead of 5 small ones in a pie. As would Nicholas. You wouldn’t count the cores, as you suggest - that would be pointless. You’d use your commonsense.

  Jon, technically you’re right. But only technically. Nicholas was asking for more than that.

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  • Asked by Delicate
  • on 2010-12-18 12:15:10
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Jon-Richfield says:

But D, I would not offend you for anything, especially at this time of the year, but the point I am trying to make is that the cooking brigade (Bless them! I love good cooking!) seem to insist on treating

2 apples + 2 apples = 4 apples

as the same kind of statement  as

2        +   2            =  4

They are not.  The second statement says nothing about anything doing anything or representing anything but counting --- enumeration, as most mathematicians like to call it. The moment that you start  adding THINGS to the transaction, things that have their own attributes to the numbers, in such a way that your enumerations are affected by those things, then we are no longer thinking about the same statement, but something different. For example, suppose you go to a shop to buy two sets of underwear, you would not be satisfied to find that each set came with a man wearing it, would you? Not even if the salesman pointed out that you had received the exactly the right number of the right kind of items? Nor would he mollify you by offering to replace them with underwear on baboons instead of men?

I am sure that mollification would require more sophisticated maths than that!  ;-)

 

Now, let's see. Eggs. Apples. Nicholas. That sort of thing. That 2+2=4 thing is maths and purely axiomatic as long as we are speaking of formal maths. As soon as you start talking about 2eggs+2eggs=4eggs, you change the game. You are no longer speaking of formal maths, but applied maths, a thing so bastardised that G.H. Hardy refused to regard it as having anything to do with maths at all. He was wrong of course; he should have asked me before making such a fool of himself. (Mind you, since I was not born yet...)

Now the thing about applied maths is that its axioms must match the behaviour of the system you apply it to. If I want a certain mass of egg juice, then if the egg masses are not constant enough, then I cannot trust the calculation of masses from the munber of eggs. Fair enough. No one said that they did. Certainly no mathematicians, formal or applied. OTOH if the eggs are pretty well constant in mass, then the outcome will be close enough. In ordinary enumeration close enough means exact. No more and no less. Precision is truth, and Truth  is constructed in such a way that it can't be exaggerated. (Exaggerate it and it no longer is true, right? You can't improve an over-buttered pudding by adding more eggs, or produce perfect toast by toasting it till it smokes, then 30 seconds less, even though subtraction is a valid opeartion on enumerable numbers.) 

We can think of all sorts of examples where Nicholas would use hs nous and put in 3, 4, or 5 eggs to produce a perfect result in doubling a recipe, but if he had to produce enough eggs to fill four egg cups, he would no longer be in any doubt how many to use (if they were hens eggs' and egg cups for hens' eggs anyway; but I didn't think that we were discussing silkworm or emu eggs!)

The thing is that now it is enumeration again. We assume that Nicholas can be trusted to handle eggs without dropping them (or he would never have stayed the course for 25 years!), so we could say that:

Because 4 = 4

therefore:

 it takes  4 eggs to  fit into 4 eggcups.

Now, my wife would explain to you that if she were silly enough to trust me into the kitchen, the reasoning woudl go something like this:

Because if Jon is fetching the eggs, all bets are off,

Because 4 = 4

therefore:

 it takes  6 eggs to  fit into 4 eggcups with two on the floor or forgotten on the way, or ready to sit on if you don't check before first look. 

But that still won't satisfy the mathematician that 6=4.

He is talking about one thing (enumeration) and you about another (quantification.)

You would not blink at his enumeration of the eggcups, and he would wonder (as Nicholas very rightly did) about why one uses enumeration of eggs when what one cares about is the quantification of egg mass.

And on slightly different bases, one might for example find that enumeration and quantification go slightly wrong if you  substitute the same mass of turtle eggs for hens' eggs, or Jersy milk for Friesland milk! These are things that could be very relevant to applied maths but meaningless in formal number theory.

Am I getting warmer?

 

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posted on 2010-12-18 20:41:31 | Report abuse

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Delicate says:

Are you any warmer? Yep, hot Jon. It’s ‘always, always and always and always,’ in formal maths, and ‘most of the time’ in applied maths. I’ve got it. Thanks. Glad we cleared that up.

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posted on 2010-12-22 02:14:32 | Report abuse

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Jon-Richfield says:

Gosh, thanks D! When you agree, it gives me the feeling that I probably understand it myself! That is one of the rewards of explaining things to independent-minded, lively intellects.

When it works!  :-)

 

All the best in the kitchen whether with apples, eggs, or fluids for the festivities!

 

Jon

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posted on 2010-12-22 09:23:59 | Report abuse


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Amazonian says:

Jon I appluad your posts !

 

 

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posted on 2011-08-16 17:08:31 | Report abuse

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Jon-Richfield says:

Amazonian, I appreciate the compliment; thank you!

Jon

 

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posted on 2011-09-17 16:07:08 | Report abuse


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