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Does Brass cause Polyethylene bags to break down?

My daughter has an old victorian brass microscope mounted in a mahogany case. Most of the time this sits in my study and is only brought out to look at on occasions. New Year's Eve turned out to be one such occassion, when some of our party, rather full of seasonal spirit, decided to investigate some of out antique scientific instruments. The last time my daughter had put the microscope away, she had stuffed a polyethylene supermarket bag into the box, to hold the package of slides in place - that was probably a couple of years ago. And something bizarre had happened: the bag had become extremely brittle, locked into its scrunced-up shape, It had also become extremely fragile, dissolving into tiny flakes when touched, and even smaller flakes/powder when a handful of flakes were rubbed together. The flakes and powder had a very strong 'brassy' smell. The bag was least friable in the centre of the scrucnched-up 'ball', but even there it fell into the same flakes with a slightly heavier touch

What has caused this? Googling to find out what reaction might be happening, I couldn't find anything, but mentions of brass fittings on polyethylene pipes failing came up, which could be related?

 

More information: The bag was definitely not a biodegradable bag, I've checked that. I'll see if I can find out more about it.

The last time the microscope was cleaned will have been at least 25 years ago and then it would probably have been with duraglit wadding... but I'm not sure whether it was ever cleaned like that. Most of the time it sits in a closed mahohany box.

So: no sunlight, it would have been completely dark in the box, which is stored in a corner of my study. Ambiant temperatures would have ranged between about freezing point and about 27 degreex C in summer, I suppose. No solvents I can think of, and as I said, a very strong 'brassy' smell to the degraded plastic. I am experimenting with another bag in a screw-top brass jar which I know has only ever contained water, and that 100 years ago!

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  • Asked by RoC
  • on 2011-01-01 07:05:51
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Last edited on: 2011-01-03 18:45:43

Categories: Unanswered.

Tags: chemistry, metallurgy, plasticbags.

 

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Jon-Richfield says:

If I had any good sense I would leave this one to Georg, but as I don't...

Firstly, I cannot promise that the brass was entirely innocent, but I am sceptical, to put it mildly. Undisturbed brass is not a very volatile substance. Zinc compounds do not typically have such catalytic oxidative  effects, and though copper often does, I cannot see it getting into the PE to any extent.Can't be sure though; does the brass get cleaned often, and if so, then with what?

Next, remember that there always have been various grades of PE with varying degrees of chain length, cross-linking and branching, which affect their nature, and their modes of perishing. Nowadays the sophistication and control of polymerisation are considerable, and one gets no end of grades with very impressive attributes, but especially the earlier grades had tendencies to crack, flake, go brittle, and generally to degrade in either gratifying or dismaying ways, depending on where and how they were used. I for example have seen PE behave in much the way you describe when it was exposed to sunlight for some months.

I am afraid that, not knowing which solvents were present, nor what grade of PE, nor the temperature and levels of sunlight etc, I cannot give you any better than handwaving. It is hard to put a finger on anything if I cannot inspect the corpse in person. Better luck with our other correspondents!

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Tags: chemistry, metallurgy, plasticbags.

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posted on 2011-01-02 07:19:06 | Report abuse


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petethebloke says:

I'd rather leave this to Georg, too; but is the bag definitely PE? Some supermarkets have experimented with bio-degradeable aternatives in recent years. I don't know if this extends as far as their free carrier bags.

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posted on 2011-01-02 20:49:09 | Report abuse


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Georg says:

I think more or less the same

as Jon and Pete on that "PE" and brass. Instead of looking for "biodegradable"

You should look for "degradable". There is degradable PE since some years.

Sometimes called oxodegradable. The sellers promise embrittlement

and cleavage into biodegradable molecules within some months to some

years depending on conditions.

One hint: the laquer inside the mahogany cabinet might play some

role. Eg air drying laquers can split off peroxides even after decades!

I have seen a PTFE sleeve of a ball valve in contact with styrene

and some oxygen (pipe system not in use for about 2 years)

which was corroded having holes  like a cheese!**

Georg

To prove this, You could put a identical (!) bag into the cabinet

without the microscope.

** For those not familiar with PTFE: You can boil PTFE in 

aqua regia without any attac!.

 

 

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posted on 2011-01-04 18:27:40 | Report abuse

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Jon-Richfield says:

Mmmm...

Thanks Georg, that was the sort of thing I had hoped for. I had actually wondered about peroxides, but had had no idea where they might come from.

Of course we cannot be sure of the details where there are so many independent variables, but you certainly have supplied some helpful leads.

This sort of thing shows how mportant it is to characterise the behaviour of plastics in more ways than obvious short-term studies can reveal. I regard polymer chemistry as one of our most important material studies for the future, but also as one of the most demanding. They can work miracles, but leave us with disasters. Bad news in say, aircraft structures!

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posted on 2011-01-04 20:27:28 | Report abuse


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adambom says:

The reaction you described sounds like it could be caused by oxidation. However, the rate of oxidation in PE is likely to be very slow without the presence of a stronger oxidizing agent than air.

My initial hunch was that the brass acted as an oxidizing agent, but metallic zinc and copper are reducing agents, so these are not likely the culprits.

Brass does not oxidize easily because a layer of ZnO and CuO already exist on the outside of the material. I guess it's possible that some of these oxides were reduced back to their metallic form in the presence of the plastic. That could cause the plastic to break down into monomer.

Of course, it could also be a physical change. It sounds like the plastic was stored under pressure. Extreme temperatures and pressure could cause a gradual phase change in the material over time. That could easily cause the plastic to become brittle.

 

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posted on 2011-01-04 18:29:17 | Report abuse

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Georg says:

I guess it's possible that some of these....

 

Right,

You are guessing!

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posted on 2011-01-04 18:49:51 | Report abuse


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ecstatist says:

Further suggestions:

What did the bag contain before?

The terpenes from the wood box? (terpene resin is polyethylene - I think.)

(Anaerobic) bacterial breakdown?

Evaporation of plasticizer(s)?

BTW I have also noticed the stiffening and resulting fragility of HDPE bags that have been in cardboard boxes. (5-10 years)

sssss
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posted on 2011-01-07 03:36:24 | Report abuse

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Jon-Richfield says:

Ec, to pre-empt some of Georg's reactions, though he might well be willing to elaborate or correct some of what I say:

>The terpenes from the wood box? (terpene resin is polyethylene - I think.)<

Sorry, no banana for that one. Polyethenes have practically nothing in common with terpenes. About the only point of resemblance is that some double bonds are involved in both, but that is far from any persuasive correspondence.

>(Anaerobic) bacterial breakdown?<

Forget it. PE is not immune to microbial attack in absolute terms, but close enough to be ignored in all practical conections. Anyway, when bacterial attack does in fact occur, it is slow, and does not cause the described flaking and breaking. Generally one expects such effects from ionising radiation, UV, free radicals, oxidisers such as peroxides, catalysts, and so on. All such effects are inclined to inhibit microbes strongly too.

>Evaporation of plasticizer(s)?<

Sorry Ec; Georg and I have had our arguments about plasticisers, but at the risk of exceeding my authority to speak for him, we both of us dismiss the idea of plasticisers in PE bag material! Even if it were practical, which it is not, it would be pointless.

>BTW I have also noticed the stiffening and resulting fragility of HDPE bags that have been in cardboard boxes. (5-10 years)<

Fair enough. That is where  my proposed " free radicals, oxidisers such as peroxides, and catalysts' come in.

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posted on 2011-01-07 13:02:46 | Report abuse


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