Advanced search

Answers


Is a billion still different between U.S. and British scientists?

Dictionary.com says a billion is "a cardinal number represented in the U.S. by 1 followed by 9 zeros, and in Great Britain by 1 followed by 12 zeros." It also seems it indicate that British definition is no longer used, although it's unclear on that.

Does a billion still represent two different numbers among scientists? If not, when did this change? Wouldn't older papers still use the old definition? Has this discrepency caused any practical problems in scientific projects--particularly in relation to astronomy and physics?

Cheers,

John

sssss
 (no votes)

submit an answer
  • Member status
  • none

Categories: Our universe.

Tags: physics, Mathematics, Astronomy, billion, errors.

 

Report abuse


9 answer(s)


Reply

Jon-Richfield says:

I can hardly improve on the article in Wikipedia. You can get it at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_and_short_scales

It is well worth a read apart from covering this question.

sssss
 (no votes)

Tags: physics, Mathematics, Astronomy, billion, errors.

top

posted on 2011-01-27 12:33:40 | Report abuse

Reply

ferncanyon says:

Thanks, Jon. That's very helpful.

I see Germany and a number of other non-English speaking countries still use the long scales. Hopefully translators know enough to change a German billion to an English trillion.

So I would assume Einstein changed over when he left Germany for America, but this would have remained a problem for other German scientists. Since this involves different languages, I assume we have to rely on translators getting it correct.

The UK officially switched in 1974. Wouldn't this mean that books and papers written before 1974 use the old system? In other words, if we read a paper by Roger Penrose written in the late-1960s and it says there are a billion dinguses in the universe, we won't know whether there are actually a thousand million or a million million dinguses in the universe. Right?

Or did scientists switch over long before the government got around to making it official?

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I'm in America so I'm glad to know that New Scientist is using the same billion that I do.

Cheers,

John

sssss
 (no votes)

Tags: physics, Mathematics, Astronomy, billion, errors.

top

posted on 2011-02-15 23:17:21 | Report abuse


Reply

Georg says:

Regarding You asking "among scientists".

What makes You think that this has ever been a problem

for scientists?

Scientists are used to make use of math, if numbers become

"unpleasant" or "lengthy" they use exponentials or they use 

prefixes like Mega-,. Giga,-, Tera- and so on.

They dont ever "respect" MKSA  or other conventions, if

only the numbers are readable. Eg all thermodynamic tables 

still are in calories, all calculation is done with calories,

if sombody asks for, the end result is given in Joules.

Surface tension is all cgs (Poises), and IR is in "wavenumbers"

(a frequency measure), this is number of wavelenghts in one cm.

All this was developed/chosen in order to get reasonable numbers

to write, read and tell.

Believe me, scientists leave Billions to accountants and bankers.

If You read something from scientits on money, like cost for a LHC,

You will read kEu. MEu or GEu.

Georg

 

sssss
 (no votes)

Tags: physics, Mathematics, Astronomy, billion, errors.

top

posted on 2011-01-27 12:55:25 | Report abuse

Reply

ferncanyon says:

Thanks for responding, Georg. You wrote: "Regarding You asking 'among scientists'. What makes You think that this has ever been a problem for scientists?"

I recall a few years ago when a spacecraft was lost because someone forgot to convert their measurements from metric to standard. I can see the same problem arising if a billion could mean a billion, a milliard or trillion. There's a huge difference in the amounts. It's even greater with a trillion, which can mean either a billion or a quintillion. That could really throw off your calculations. Hopefully no one is basing their calculations on pre-1974 work without being aware of this problem.

Cheers,

John

sssss
 (no votes)

Tags: physics, Mathematics, Astronomy, billion, errors.

top

posted on 2011-02-15 23:38:53 | Report abuse

Reply

mollie says:

I'm sorry NOT all thermo tables are in calories. All my uni texts were in joules and we used to laugh at old fashioned writers who would insist on using the calorie system in new text books. I'm not advocating one or the other, i understand that both meausurements are based on measureable physical properties, however, joules are the SI units and it is called the standard international units for a reason.

sssss
 (no votes)

Tags: physics, Mathematics, Astronomy, billion, errors.

top

posted on 2011-03-24 14:56:58 | Report abuse

Reply

Paul_Pedant says:

And there was me all these years, thinking SI stood for "Seriously Inconvenient".

Bring back Firkin, Furlong, Fortnight base units, I say.

 

sssss
 (no votes)

Tags: physics, Mathematics, Astronomy, billion, errors.

top

posted on 2011-03-24 16:34:26 | Report abuse


Reply

Paul_Pedant says:

There are three things I learned at school that are no longer so, and that makes me feel rather old.

Everest was 29,002 feet high, and it grew 27 feet on the Chinese side, while I only grew 5 foot ten inches.

A billion was a million million, and because Yanks count on their fingers, now it is only a thousand million.

An inch was 2.5402 and a bit centimetres, and now it  has legally shrunk to exactly 2.54 cm to make the French less confused.

To go with the Mars lander getting lost between metres and feet, I did hear of the Shuttle mission which was going to use a laser reflector to measure the height of an observatory in Hawaii. Every time they tried to align the Shuttle, it turned upside down. Apparently somebody had programmed it with the information that the mountain was around 5000 km high, instead of 5000 metres.

 

sssss
 (no votes)

Tags: physics, Mathematics, Astronomy, billion, errors.

top

posted on 2011-02-17 23:13:42 | Report abuse


Reply

TheSadistician says:

It is interesting to read the other replys and the Wikipedia article referred to by Jon in the first reply. Despite having gone to primary school in Australia after the 1974 change over by the UK, I learnt that a billion was a million million.

Now that I work as a mathematician, I still follow the long scale rule for naming numbers, i.e.:

1 = One

10 = Ten

100 = Hundred (Tens of Tens)

1,000 = One Thousand (Tens of Hundreds)

10,000 = Ten Thousand

100,000 = Hundred Thousand

1,000,000 = Million

10,000,000 = Ten Million

100,000,000 = Hundred Million

1,000,000,000 = Thousand Million (Milliard or "US" Billion)

10,000,000,000 = Ten Thousand Million

100,000,000,000 = Hundred Thousand Million

1,000,000,000,000 =  Billion (Million Millions or "UK" Billion)

Of couse, as a scientist, I use the standard SI measurements (metres, grams, etc.) and so when writing large numbers I use scientific notation (e.g. 10^12) or standard prefixes (e,g. Kilo, Mega, Giga, Tera) and avoid (where possible) referring to billion, trillion, quadrillion etc. as the ambiguity of the number names may lead others to misinterpret my statements. When others use number names like billion without also providing the number in scientific notation, I immediate ask for a clarification of whether they mean 10^9 or 10^12.

I also do a fair amount of work with permutations of sporting team player line ups and so I am aware that 11! is approximately 40 million and 15! is approximately 1.31 x 10^12. When I present these figures I am very careful not to say 1.31 billion, but rather "1.31 million million" or "1.31 by 10^12" to ensure my audience is aware of the true scale of the numbers.

With regards to the Mars mission, I like to use that as an example to my students of how "trusting the computer output" can lead to disaster if you don't have an estimate of the correct answer and the correct order of magnitude, especially when working with very large numbers.

 

sssss
 (no votes)

Tags: physics, Mathematics, Astronomy, billion, errors.

top

posted on 2011-03-01 01:23:15 | Report abuse

Reply

Jon-Richfield says:

Years ago there was an article in one of the pro computer rags (CACM perhaps?) in which the writer said rude things about students who could not tell the difference between milliseconds, nor tell when to think about it. Usually it makes no difference of course, but when it does make a difference, it is SOME difference!

He appended a table of orders of magnitudes from Atto- to Exa-, together with examples of the kind of thing one would measure with each.  I think he mentioned weight, time, distance etc. Can't remember. However, my point is that he was right on with the importance of being able to visualise such things. My wife used to teach maths, and she was driven to near-neurosis by people (not always pupils) who would make the most ludicrous errors or draw the most nonsensical conclusions from finger trouble or miscalculations.

Me too, and sometimes by my own errors!

sssss
 (no votes)

Tags: physics, Mathematics, Astronomy, billion, errors.

top

posted on 2011-03-08 18:33:03 | Report abuse


The last word is ...

the place where you ask questions about everyday science

Answer questions, vote for best answers, send your videos and audio questions, save favourite questions and answers, share with friends...

register now


ADVERTISMENT